Directed by Paul M. Zenk
Transcribed from a Recording by CIAS

Douglas: Hello, my name is Herb Douglas. I have been asked to introduce Robert Wieland a living legend of our time. We had many requests from hundreds of thousands of people in the world to nail down certain aspects of history that have become very special to the Adventist denomination and our focus is upon the year 1888. And like 1844, these are two dates that are really imbedded in Adventist history. People want to know why this particular date 1888 has become so important in the history of the denomination and even today, and so that is our focus.

So I introduce to you Robert Wieland, a minister of 45 years, who has written 25 books or so, and we welcome you, Bob.

Wieland: Thank you.

Douglas: What have you been doing for these 45 years?

Wieland: Well, its more than 45 years. It goes all the way back to 1929.

Douglas: Were you always an Adventist?

Wieland: No. I was born in Tolusa, and then we moved to a town where there was no Lutheran church and there we went to the Presbyterian Church and I discovered the Sabbath truth in the Presbyterian Sunday school.

Douglas: All right, continue.

Wieland: And I took my stand for the Sabbath. I was the only Adventist boy in my high school for four years. So I started off having battles.

Douglas: Friday nights?

Wieland: Yes. I played the violin fairly well in those days. When they asked if I could play for a party I couldn't do it. I couldn't go to any of the ball games. I was sticking out like a sore thumb continually all through High School.

Then in my senior year the faculty asked me to represent our high school in the Florida State Academic contest for English and English Literature and I won first place in the State of Florida.

Douglas: Good move.

Wieland: That gave me two scholarships.

Douglas: To ...

Wieland: Steffan University and to the University of Florida at Gainesville.

Douglas: But?

Wieland: I had a sort of a godfather, a vice president of the General Conference, Oliver Montgomery, who had known me since I was a boy. And he got me off immediately to Southern Junior College to keep me out of those two universities.

Douglas: No scholarship.

Wieland: And there I worked hauling wet cement in a wheel barrow and 23 other jobs to work my way through college. There is where I learned how to be a missionary.

Douglas: And you graduated in .... ?

Wieland: I graduated in 1939.

Douglas: You graduate to do what job?

Wieland: Well, big story. There was no job.

Douglas: Depression years?

Wieland: No. That wasn't the problem. I had already discovered the 1888 message.

Douglas: How did that happen?

Wieland: Well, it was in my senior year in college. Our Bible teacher Lindsay, a seventh generation, had known Ellen White personally in Australia. And he told us one day that the most famous evangelist we had, he was always dressed in a white suit, and had a spot light on him and baptized people by the hundreds, didn't understand the two covenants. And that shocked me. I asked him, if Elder so and so didn't understand the two covenants, who does? And he looked up at the ceiling and he rolled his eyes around and he said, I don't know who does.

So I asked, `where can we learn about it?'

I checked him out on that recently. I went to the library and I got the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald volume for 1939 and read through the entire volume - there was nothing there about the new covenant really.

I said, Well, who does?

How can we learn about it?

He said, Well, the best we could read is the `Glad Tidings' volume by E.J. Waggoner. So he brought the book and put it on reserve for us and I read it. I was John Wesley in that little chapel and all his great preaching in London ... hearing someone like Luther on Romans and my heart was greatly warmed.

I had discovered the gospel, before I never understood it.

You see, here in high school, with all these battles over the Sabbath, my high school principal got annoyed with me. He said, `Robert, you ought to read the book Galatians that ought to straighten you up on this Saturday business.

And I read Galatians, but I couldn't understand it.

I went to camp meeting every year, to church every Sabbath, nobody ever explained Galatians for me.

Douglas: No minister? No teacher?

Wieland: No. Never heard a sermon on it.

Douglas: And then what happened?

Wieland: I read that book (Glad Tidings), I understood something at least about what the gospel really is. That is how I got started.

And somehow, because of my early glimpse of the 1888 message, I can't tell you now why, I was not placed. Something happened. You don't know about this. But they didn't understand me. And they thought I was may be a gook or something. And I couldn't go out and get into business because I had given my heart and my life to the Lord to be a missionary. All I could do was go out and sell books and Colporteur. Which I was not very famous at.

Finally, a General Conference Publishing Director came through and found me and said, `You ought to be in the ministry.' And my godfather, Elder Oliver Montgomery, a vice president of the GC. He told me, `Robert, go down to the GC president and tell him, you just have to have a place, you know you are divinely called to the ministry ... you gotta have a place.

Well, I couldn't do that. I didn't want to pull any strings to enter the ministry. I went down and told him I am available if you want me. ...

And he finally invited me to be a tentmaster. Do you know what that is?

Douglas: I understand. I was one once.

Wieland: The lowest rung of the ladder.

Douglas: Way back in Illinois.

Wieland: Yes. And I could take my six dollars a week and also colporteur, or twelve dollars a week full time. I grabbed the full time.

Douglas: Sounds pretty good.

Wieland: And that is how I got started in the ministry, thanks to the Lord.

Douglas: And then ... first church?

Wieland: Well, my first church was St. Augustine, Florida. ....

Douglas: How long were you there?

Wieland: I was there about nine months and then we were called to Africa.

Douglas: You were called to Africa to do what?

Wieland: Just to be a lower level missionary. That is all the work you could get.

Douglas: What years was that?

Wieland: We were called ... we went there ... in 1945.

Douglas: And when you got there - what kind of an organization was it - did you fit in? Did they tell you what to do or ....?

Wieland: Yes. We had a mission director for the Uganda mission, who instructed me what to do and took me through the little mission station at Kuttoro in eastern Uganda and left both of us there.

One reason why I wanted to go to Africa was because the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald had been publishing articles about Ruanda and Kenya, stating that the Latter Rain was falling because of the huge baptisms that were taking place and I wanted to see them. When I got there - the GC had a little book that they gave you - and the little book said, `You are going out to Africa for life, not just for seven years. Settle down. Learn the language. Get to know the people...'

And I did that. I got to know the people and I discovered that the people had not the Latter Rain.

Douglas: And you learned their language too?

Wieland: Yes. I learned two languages over there. The honest truth, if you want me to tell you, the honest truth is, those dear people were (in effect) Seventh day Baptists. They had no idea of the Sanctuary Message, no understanding of what Justification by Faith really is. And Uganda became the Aids capital of the world. - I got into some horrible situations. The British Commissioner had to know and I had to write him a letter, `I said, I am sorry Mr. Wheeler to inform you, that your mission teacher is having carnal relations with the girls.'

It was a plague. And what can I do. I wished I could go home. Why was I giving my life to this kind of a situation here? It was a disaster.

Douglas: And, how did this lead you to understand or how to apply the New Covenant shall we say?

Wieland: Well, I discovered the discipline was not going to help. These dear people had to understand the gospel, and I was forced to study.

There also came a counterfeit movement that threatened certain parts of the Church in Ruanda and infiltrated the Church of England Mission in Uganda, and from there it came into our own little SdA Church in Uganda - it was from the Oxford group movement and it was ... it seemed to bring revival, and bring joy and self-esteem that seemed to make people happy. And at first I thought it was a good thing until I found out, they were telling you that ordinary Christians are on that lower level, but the real Christians were on a higher level, they were the one's who said, `We are saved. - I am saved, Halleluja.' And they would sing that little song, //// They were now on this higher level, and someone pointed out that the little book `Christ's Object Lessons' said, you are never to think or to say `I am saved.' That is misleading. {COL 155.2}

And I realized that they were mistaken and I got to work and study, and the more I studied, the more I realized what these people needed to understand is what happened on the cross.

Douglas: For how long were you in Uganda?

Wieland: We were not there long. Three years. And then through some mysterious providence we were given the opportunity to go home on furlough. We had gone out for seven years. But technically we were under the Northern European Division which gave you only 3 1/2 years and then a six month furlough and we chose that.

But I had to meet this fanatical movement there and I discovered the idea of `agape', which I had never learned about in college.

Douglas: Agape meaning ...

Wieland: .. "... the love of Christ constrains us." 2.Corinthians 5:14 (KJV).

Douglas: `Agape' is a Greek word.

Wieland: The Greek word `agape'. And I found this book by Andrew's store, `Agape'. Some missionary was going home to England and selling his books and I had to pay a Shilling for it.

And, it was over my head, I couldn't understand it at first, but I took it with me on my long safaris in the bush and studied in it, and I finally got the idea. And I began to preach that to the Africans what happened on the cross, what Jesus did for us, how he justified the whole world by His sacrifice. And I also had discovered from the 1888 message by reading the `Glad Tidings' that Christ in His incarnation took our fallen sinful nature, which means I could tell these people in Uganda, Christ was tempted like you are. Yes! He was tempted sexually as are men, as well. And He condemned sin in fallen sinful flesh ...

Douglas: Romans 8:4?

Wieland: Romans 8:4. And I began to preach that, and the Lord blessed. For the first time I saw tears trickling down the cheeks in Africa because I preached about what happened on the cross.

Their hearts were melting. Something was happening. Even though I didn't turn the world upside down, as I was saying that.

But I did discover, that the preaching of the cross does impact human lives.

Then we went home on furlough. Shall I tell you what happened?

Douglas: Obviously. -- You didn't go out and plant potatoes.

Wieland: I went to the seminary. Our theological seminary, which was then at Takoma Park and enrolled in the class on `Righteousness by Faith' because I wanted to learn about it. The instructor was a marvelous individual. I never heard him preach before. He was only 33 as I was only 33.

At first I thought this man is our Joshua who is going to lead us into the Promised Land. I thought he was marvelous. But after a week to ten days, I began to see some things that didn't stack up. - Things that bothered me. And it finally dawned on me what I was meeting was the same kind of theology I had to meet out there in Uganda.

And I went to the instructor. I had a visit with him, and told him what my convictions were becoming. And, he did not receive me. Finally what happened was, he was recommending the books of E. Stanley Jones, of the previous generation. But E. Stanley Jones was the Rick Warren of that generation. The `great Evangelical leader.' And I got the books of E. Stanley Jones (`The Way to Power and Poise') to see what he was saying. He was offering a little prayer, it was a devotional book, `Oh God, I shall love myself in Thee this day.' 113 `For love of self is love of God.'

That woke me up. And he also tells how he went to the grave of his grandmother and communed with her there at her grave. And all the way through, this idea of self-esteem. What does Christianity do with this primary urge of self, crucify it? No. The self is to be affirmed because self is worthy of love.

Douglas: This was not received to well in your class on `righteousness by faith?'

Wieland: Well, with me it wasn't received too well. I got some red lights flashing that disturbed me. But I went to the president and he did not take kindly to what I said. And that started for me these 50 some years of trial and often misunderstanding. - What you referred to a little while ago.

Douglas: I understand that a recently circulated manuscript that became a book right about that time, precipitated the 1952 Bible Conference. Which was quite an international deal at that time. Now, what was that book?

Wieland: Well, the Southern Africa Division had appointed Donald K. Short and myself to be delegates to the 1950 GC session in San Francisco. Donald K. Short was the mission director of the largest mission station in Africa at the time.

Just one little point there.

Before I left the seminary, I went by the White Estate to ask if I could see what Ellen White had to say about 1888. Arthur White was away, he was in South Africa, but D. E. Robinson was in charge. And he said, `Well, no, we don't usually let people in to read those materials, because they are rather controversial. - And I didn't leave, I just stood there. And he said, `Well, why do you want to know?' I said, `I have been in the seminary and I found some things that are self-contradictory. I like to know what Ellen White said.' `Well,' he said, `who are you?' I said, `I am the president of the Uganda Mission.' - `Oh.' - `I know your son so and so, we were together at the South Africa Union commission' - `Oh.'

`Well, come in.'

And then he brought me a file containing much of the material that is very significant of these that are in those four huge volumes that are now as the 1888 Materials. I was reading her diary, her letters, her documents, that gave an entirely different picture then what I was getting at the seminary.

Douglas: I well know.

Wieland: And I said, `May I copy?' He said, `Yes, if you don't publish.' I said, `I have no intention to publish.' So I brought my little portable typewriter in, and I typed like mad till 5 o'clock.

And I said, `May I take this home overnight and bring it back tomorrow? He said, `Oh, no. Those books go back in the vault until tomorrow. But the next day he wouldn't give it back to me.

But he didn't ask for my notes back.

And those notes became the basis for the manuscript we wrote for the GC committee entitled, 1888-Reexamined. - We presented that to the GC brethren on September 16, 1950. We gave them 16 copies.

If you could have visited the GC offices during the next weeks you would have found brethren reading that manuscript. That is what we referred to. That precipitated discussion back and forth, pro and con, which finally led to the 1952 Bible Conference.

Douglas: And it did have some speakers on that point, what we mean by Christ's righteousness?

Wieland: Yes, there were. And there was a clear presentation on the two covenants at the 1952 session, that's right.

Douglas: And, what happened then? You were to be sort of exonerated?

Wieland: No. I don't think so. Because, when the brethren read the manuscript, they knew that we were loyal to the church. They had been afraid that we were not loyal, see. They thought that we were going to be trouble makers or something like that. And when they read `1888 Reexamined', they knew definitely, yes, we were absolutely loyal to this church. They sent us back to Africa with their blessing but asked us not to teach the 1888 message. So I go back and preach righteousness by faith. I think they meant the Evangelical version.

But in 1951 they responded negatively to our manuscript and asked us not to circulate it.

Meanwhile, we sent a few mimeographed copies to some personal friends, and they let it out. And it got out. And it became controversial. - Until finally, in 1987, we revised it and published it as a book. So that is the background of 1888.

Douglas: Do you have any significant details between 1952 and the 1970's shall we say? Did it affect you in any way that you had correspondence with the GC leadership?

Wieland: We had constant correspondence back and forth with the GC. We received letters that were very critical, strongly opposing the theological position that we had gleaned from the actual writings of Jones and Waggoner.

Douglas: You were sort of teetering back and forth as to whether you really should bow out and preach Daniel 2 or something, but you kept on focusing on what you thought was that message what the SdA church needed and the world needed.

What kind of a God is ruling the universe. What kind of a God was it that died on the Cross. What did it all mean to us as far as getting ourselves ready, to be translated, shall we say?

Wieland: Right. I had the conviction all along, that God had sent the 1888 message specifically to prepare a people for translation in their generation.

Douglas: Can you give us an overview, a bird's eye view, of what we mean by the 1888 message?

Wieland: The 1888 message is "most precious". Those are the words. The two young messengers which the Lord sent with the message had heavenly credentials, she said. Their understanding of justification by faith went far beyond that of Luther's and Calvin's, or that of the Evangelicals of that day. The reason for that is, Jones and Waggoner, although they were young, they were in the 30's, managed to combine together the unique Adventist idea of the cleansing of the sanctuary with Paul's idea of justification by faith. And by putting those two doctrines together, Jones and Waggoner discovered what we call the 1888 message.

Therefore it was something that the Evangelicals were not able to grasp, because they had no idea of the sanctuary message.

Douglas: When you say sanctuary message in connection here with justification by faith, What is it (in it) that had anything to do with getting us ready for heaven?

Wieland: Because the sanctuary in heaven can never be cleansed until first of all the hearts of God's people are cleansed.

Douglas: In other words we are kind of like the sanctuary. That God is concerned about us?

Wieland: No. There is a literal sanctuary in heaven. But the High Priest can never succeed in cleansing that sanctuary of the records of our sins until, first of all, those sins have been eradicated in our human hearts.

And so, it is not a matter of sinning and repenting, coming back next Sabbath and repenting all over again, then going back and sinning some more.

The general idea, therefore, in the church today - I am sorry to say - is that it is impossible to really overcome sin per say. - The best you can do is to keep on repenting.

Douglas: And just tell everybody that Jesus paid it all anyhow?

Wieland: Yes!

Douglas: So that is the Evangelical idea. I try to get to the difference between - what you, Waggoner, Jones, say - and what the Evangelicals are saying.

Wieland: The Evangelical Church is saying, Jesus forgives you, and you go on and sin some more because you can never really overcome sin per se. - Jones and Waggoner said, the Adventist doctrine of the cleansing of the sanctuary means it is possible to overcome even as Christ overcame. - It is possible for a generation to prepare to be translated.

Douglas: And that is biblical?

Wieland: Jones and Waggoner said it is biblical and I am thoroughly convinced that it is biblical. It is the teaching of the Holy Bible.

Douglas: Can you give us a text that would say that clearly?

Wieland: Yes. It is found in Revelation: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Revelation 3:21 KJV.

This tells us something tremendous. For one thing, it is possible to overcome even as Christ overcame, and secondly, it tells us that Christ overcame - in other words, Christ had a constant battle with self and we have a battle with self, and whereas we give in to self, we yield to self-will, Jesus never did. He always condemned sin in our fallen, sinful flesh.

And thirdly, those who overcome are going to be invited to partake with Christ in the closing events of human history. They are going to be invited to sit with Him in His throne, apparently as members, somehow, of the heavenly congress or parliament? They will have a responsibility in bringing to a close the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

Douglas: I like to get into that later. When we have more time for that. But haven't there been any church leaders who supported you in this? Back in the 50's shall we say?

Wieland: Well, we have had numerous ad-hoc committees appointed by the GC.

Douglas: What about in the 1950's when you were a young man ... you just go, Wow, am I against the whole world here by going off on some tangent? Did anybody give you some help?

Wieland: That is exactly how I felt. - When I was asked to leave the seminary, Grace and I were deeply distressed. We thought our life work was ruined. But as time went on - on this spiritualism issue, and E. Stanley Jones - I took a stand. I even spoke to the GC president, telling him what I found. Because the `Ministry' magazine was recommending that Adventist ministers all around the world should study E. Stanley Jones. ... We can't go along with him on the ecumenical issues, but we can certainly go along with him on this issue of righteousness by faith. He understands it clearly. It will help you to preach on `righteousness by faith.' ... And yet, he was teaching spiritualism.

Douglas: That is true.

Wieland: It burdened me, and finally I discovered his most recent book was, `The Way to Power and Poise.' I got the book and I read it and that is where I found these prayers, `Oh God, I shall love self' and so on. ... And then an old man, a retired, former GC president minister, William A. Spicer, wrote an editorial every week for the Review and he wrote one warning against eastern mysticism infiltrating Adventist thinking. And the key word is "poised."

Hmm. I put two and two together and I came up with a little letter to elder Spicer, `Could you made have reference to E. Stanley Jones's new book?' He wrote back, `Yes.' - I told him what I found in the book. He wrote me back a handwritten letter, he said, `Dear brother Wieland, Thank God you saw the evil in that book. I regard E. Stanley Jones as doing the worst work of any modern religious agent. If others would protest as you have done, it might do some good. - And I fired a letter back. I said, `Elder Spicer, I am nobody. I can't protest. Why don't you protest? You are somebody.' - He wrote me back and said, `I will, but not until after the GC session. Everybody thinking about that, they wouldn't read it. And he did, that summer. -- Yes, I did have support from W.A. Spicer. The grand daddy of all Adventist ministers. A wonderful man. Spicer College was named after him over there in India.[100]

Douglas: We are down to the seventies now. What happened.

Wieland: We had some ad-hoc committees. It seemed that the GC president couldn't let go off this issue. They kept writing letters to us, and putting pressure on us. - Well, the problem is, the `1888 Reexamined' found its way to Australia and stirred up some controversy there - we had nothing to do with it - but it was stirred up and the brethren were distressed about it and they were hoping that we could retract or take it back or something to silence people protesting, yet. And for that reason various ad-hoc committees were called.

There was one called in 1972. Quite a large committee composed of the intelligencia of our scholarly world and of our GC leadership, and both, Short and I were there and we were grilled. The meeting lasted all week long. And it would surprise you, the brethren came down there on the holy Sabbath day and opened those GC offices so that that committee might continue Sabbath afternoon. They were so disturbed about this matter, and you asked, `Did we have any support?' Well, the whole, quite large committee were totally opposed to us. Except two. There were two men who got up early in the morning and rewrote what they understood was our thesis and they supported us beautifully.

Douglas: I remember. I was there.

Wieland: One was Mervin Maxwell, the son of Uncle Arthur, and the other was Herbert Douglas.

Douglas: Interesting times. But we had some GC vice-presidents who really were supporting you. But they may not have wanted to get far out ahead.

Wieland: They didn't come out of the closet.

Douglas: Right. But they were supportive.

Wieland: And, yes, today we have many pastors who are supporting us. There is one who is a pastor here in Northern California who supports us beautifully. And there is another pastor in the valley and here and there who openly identify with us. But there are (also) many pastors who read our writings and say `Amen', and their hearts respond and they believe but they haven't gotten out of the closet yet. But I believe they are on the way. The Lord is working. And I have absolute confidence that the Lord is going to bring this church to the place of repentance and acceptance of this most precious message.

Douglas: Now Bob, we have been saying for over 150 years that the Lord is near, He is coming and even at the door. Are we having trouble with English? How can anything be near, even at the door, for 150 years. Have we been wrong?

Wieland: I wish that 12 or 13 million people would ask that question around the world. I wished, that our people in North America, where the movement began, would stop and think about what you have just said. - Can we go on for another 500 or a thousand years and keep saying, `The Lord's coming is near?'

That doesn't make sense.

Ellen White declared that if the 1888 message had been accepted by GC leadership, the Lord could have come by 1893. You ask where that is (written)? That is in the 1893 GC Daily Bulletin, page 419. And she said it many times.

Douglas: At least 40 times that I know about.

Wieland: Yes. Right. And finally after the turn of the century she had to declare we have to remain in this world for many more years, because of our insubordination to the Lord. {20MR 313.1} And I happen to believe time enough has gone now. I don't see any point that continuing to be a world loving, lukewarm, self-esteeming church body for another 25 or 50 years. I don't see the point in waiting that long.

Douglas: Is God waiting for the world to get worse? That they add up to all their wickedness and when it gets too much then He comes anyhow?

Wieland: I hope we don't have to wait that long.

Douglas: Well, is that the way God thinks?

Wieland: I can't believe that the Bible pictures, what Ellen White has been saying of the finishing of God's Work, that Christ, as the heavenly bridegroom is going to have to knock His bride to be down and grab her by her hair and drag her to the altar. I can't see that that is the picture in the Bible.

Douglas: Well, does the Bible say anything why God waits?

Wieland: Yes! In Revelation 19:7,8 we read of those grand halleluja choruses, there are four of them up there: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready." Therefore, the only reason why the Lord Jesus has not yet come, is because His bride to be has not made herself ready.

Douglas: Yes, but John says a lot about the sealing of that group of people. An interesting word that in Rev. 7 perhaps may tie in with what you just said.

Wieland: In Revelation 7 you read about four angels with a mission from heaven to hold the four winds of strife until "we have sealed the servants of our Lord God in their foreheads." And there were a 144,000 thousand who were sealed, which I hope is a symbolic and not a literal number.

Douglas: Now, are you saying that God is holding back the natural entropy of evil, the contining misery in this world, He is holding much of it back because He hasn't gotten enough people to seal?

Wieland: Yes.

Douglas: Well, that is a profound answer when you say yes.

Wieland: ... Not only not enough people sealed, may be if anybody has been sealed yet, I don't know. But you and I couldn't drive home safely on the freeway unless the Lord was holding those four winds of strife.

Douglas: Well, who are these people. Do we have any kind of description of what kind of people He is trying to seal?

Wieland: Well, when they are sealed we have a description, yes. In their mouth is found no guile.

Douglas: Where are you getting that from?

Wieland: They are without fault before the throne of God. That is what the Bible says, not Ellen White or me who believe it. That is Revelation 14 verses 4 and 5. A group of people who overcame, even as Christ overcame. Who "follow the Lamb, withersoever He goeth."

Douglas: To wherever the truth leads.

Wieland: Wherever the truth leads. Self is crucified with Christ.

Douglas: Is that what sealing means? That God says, I could put my stamp of approval on them. ... I can trust you.

Wieland: There are people who are crucified with Christ. In other words, to meet Him, they are people who have finally understood what happened on the Cross when Jesus died.

Douglas: What does He write in their foreheads?

Wieland: He writes the Father's name.

Douglas: Ah, wouldn't that be wonderful to have Him write His signature on anyone's forehead?

Wieland: It will be done.

Douglas: These are my people, you can trust them.

Wieland: I hope it is not going to be a literal number. I figured up one time, you know, if it is a literal number that would be 1.7 people from the whole of Placer County in California. Not much chance for us to be part of the group. I hope it is a 144,000 categories of people who have overcome.

Douglas: So they could be first fruits too.

Wieland: Yes.

Douglas: In other words, there is something about this 1888 message that can speed up this process of getting people sealed, so that God can say, we have finally come to the place where the plan of salvation has been vindicated.

Wieland: I believe it. The message was sent for that very purpose, but it was not well received.

Douglas: Because ... what were they afraid of?

Wieland: Well, there were a number of factors involved. For one thing, the leadership of the church were gray haired men and the two messengers who brought the 1888 message were two young men.

Douglas: Bob, we are gray haired now.

Wieland: I know. Which means you and I are in the very same position. Because it is old men who make stupid mistakes.

I constantly pray Psalm 71, `Oh, Lord, now that I am old, and gray haired do not forsake me yet. Please hold me by the hand, don't let me stumble and make some stupid mistake that would ruin my whole life work. Psalm 71:9.

Douglas: Now lets get serious. What were these men, who worked 80 or 90 hours a week, they paid their tithe faithfully, they really were spending their life in the leadership of this church - no motels, no fancy highways.

Wieland: No restaurant meals even, they just ate their lunch.

Douglas: Why would these good men be afraid what these young men Jones and Waggoner were saying?

Wieland: Well, the only possible answer is, they were immersed in the Old Covenant. They had never really understood the New Covenant.

Douglas: They loved the Sabbath.

Wieland: Yes, they kept the Sabbath. But there was egocentric concern that motivated them.

Douglas: Explain.

Wieland: Well, Egocentric concern - they had given up real estate on this earth hoping to get real estate in heaven. - And I am not saying that is wrong, to have a desire to be saved and to have a mansion in the New Jerusalem. But the nearer you come to the Cross of Christ, the less you are going to think about that mansion in the New Jerusalem. The love, which is "agape" love about which John says in 1.John 4:8 that God is (agape) love, and he uses that word `agape.' It is an entirely different kind of love than what we human beings know on this earth.

Douglas: Like Philadelphia.

Wieland: Yes, that is `philos' love. Philos is family affection, which is very nice, of course. But `agape' is a kind of a love that dares to go to hell.

Douglas: For ...

Wieland: ... To save somebody else. And that is what Christ did on His Cross.

I was born a Lutheran, and then I attended the Presbyterian and Methodist Church. I love these people in these Sunday keeping churches - still. Bless their heart. It is not their fault they don't see what happened on the Cross, because they believe in the Pagan Papal doctrine of natural immortality. They cannot conceive of how Christ, when He died on that Cross, actually died the world's Second Death. Christ poured out His soul unto death, Isaiah 53:12. By implication, Christ emptied Himself, Phil. 2:7-9. Like you drain a bottle of its last drop. He gave everything. Even His eternal life when He cried out on the cross, `My God, why have you forsaken me?' - It seemed to Him the Father had forsaken him. And He was willing to be forsaken by the Father to save you and me.

Douglas: Connect that with the Second Death?

Wieland: Well, the Second Death is the death from which there is no resurrection. It is the giving up of hope, say good bye to life forever. And that is the consecration that Christ paid for us.

Douglas: But the people who suffered the Second Death have been resurrected?

Wieland: But not for eternal life. They have been resurrected to the judgment, yes. And it is interesting, 1.Corinthians 15:22 tells us that both resurrections are in Christ.

Douglas: True, yes.

Wieland: So even the wicked rested in Christ which is a little insight into the reality, that, when Christ died upon the Cross, He redeemed the world.

Douglas: But now, in the Second Resurrection real time comes in with them, reality is really in touch with them.

Wieland: Yes, This is what they missed. In Revelation 20:12 it says, "the books are opened," and all the secrets in those books are openly revealed.

Douglas: Why would that have to be?

Wieland: It has to be in order for the great controversy finally to be finished. Because, if there is any lingering doubt of God's character of `agape', of love, sin could start over again.

Douglas: For being unfair.

Wieland: For being unfair, yes. And when the wicked finally see themselves as reality is, and see how deeply selfish they have always been, how they, each one, have driven those spikes through Jesus' wrist and ankle bones, they crucified the Lord of glory. When that full realization dawns upon them, the pain is going to be worse than the fire of the lake of fire. And Ellen White tells us in the Great Controversy, that they will welcome destruction (p. 542).

And sometimes when I preach I get carried away and I say, after the books are opened and the judgment takes place, and the wicked finally realize who they are, that their name is Esau - they had the birthright in their hand. God had given it to them, not only that God offered it to them. He gave it to them. They had it and they threw it away. They sold it. They despised it. They will want to jump into the lake of fire.

Douglas: Sounds like Gethsemane all over again.

Wieland: Yes. And the 144,000 will want to go through Gethsemane on the right side and they are going to pray just like Jesus did, `Lord, not my will, but Thine be done.' The complete crucifixion of self.

Now, the general feeling among SdAs today is, that kind of experience is just beyond us, its just so impossible. No. We are not capable of going through Gethsemane like that. We'll just have to die and go to the grave and come up in the first resurrection - that is an underground route to heaven. That is the easy way to go. - Even if you get cancer, you get drugs and they take away the pain.

I had a dear lady, she used to be my secretary. She wrote me a letter last week, she retired. She said, `Robert and Grace', you know, I don't want to go through the time of trouble. I just want to die. Go to heaven that way. Well, she is old. I wouldn't want her to feel pain or anything like that. But when young people tell me that I just say, `You are depriving Christ of a witness He needs and He deserves to preach in these last days.'

Douglas: Now, may be this is too much. But the people who awake in the Second Resurrection, the real point of their anguish is that they resisted when God ... its easier to be saved than to be lost.

Wieland: That is heresy, careful. As a good Adventist minister you should tell people how hard, how many sacrifices, how steep the hill is they have to climb, that is what most Adventist ministers will feel it to be their duty to tell people.

Douglas: Horrible.

Wieland: ... But the 1888 message came up with an entirely different idea.

Douglas: What was that?

Wieland: When you understand how good the good news is. When you come to appreciate what faith is as Ellen White defines it, `Saved' is a heart appreciation of what it cost the Son of God to save us. When you realize what He has done for you, then this `agape' love of Christ constrains you. And the word `constrains' does not mean it holds you back, it will push you forward. Like some would say, `It drives you into a life of total self-sacrificing ministry with the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul tells us, 2 Corinthians 5:14,15. He says, the love of Christ constrains us, because we self judge. Like you figure 2 plus 2 = 4, alright add this thing up. If one died for all, that means all died the Second Death. And when you realize that you belong in that eternal grave, you deserve eternal death. And you realize, the Lord Jesus, your elder brother, took it from you, to give you eternal life instead, then that love will constrain you, to live not for self, but for him who died for you and rose again. That is why it is easy to be saved and hard to be lost - but do not put a period there. - If! If you understand how good the good news is. Does that make sense?

Douglas: It makes sense to me because I can't understand the gospel any other way. Of course self-denial is a daily experience. We die daily.

There is a tv program I used to watch a year ago. ... I don't take time to watch that anymore. I am repenting of wasting my time, I could be doing something better in. It is a constant repenting, growing experience. That is why I am resisting that self-denial. But why? I have all these angels in heaven and the Holy Spirit to help me do it. But I am choosing something to ... I don't have the Holy Spirit telling me. I am on my own. Otherwise I .... When I am choosing something the Lord wants me to do, I got the power of the Holy Spirit.

That is the way I look at it personally. That is enough for me.

Wieland: When we kneel down with Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, and stay awake, which Peter, James and John didn't do. But if by God's grace we can stay awake in the Garden of Gethsemane, it will become easy for us to deny self ... and follow Christ.

Douglas: See, that is the whole point of sealing, as far as I am concerned.

Wieland: I believe it.

Douglas: Because sealing is simply developing neural patterns that make it easier to say, yes at any time, whereas it is easier to say, no another time.

When I learned to type write, you know, no letters on the keys - and you look up at the blackboard and you see which keys to pick and try to find them down there with your finger tips - and wow, that was so difficult. Weeks went by and I was getting ten words a minute, you know? But today, I can type 70 to 80 words today. I never even look at the keys. Why. Because my neural patterns, all those pathways are in the right place because of the repetition, doing it over and over again. And when you choose to be a loving, kind and gracious person over and over again, by the grace of God, you become a spontaneously, natural kind of gracious person.

Wieland: Every time that strikes you will meet with the same response condemning sin in the flesh.

Douglas: And the more boot ups you log condemning, it will be easier and be no problem. That is why we will be saved, because we have build up those neuro pathways. Now God can trust you forever, because your neuro pathways are so build in, you never say `no' to Him again.

Wieland: Well, that idea of being easier to be saved than it is to be lost, is to me a totally new idea. I went all the way through senior college, went all the way through the seminary, and I never heard that proclaimed until I read it in the writings of Jones and Waggoner. - Both of them had that idea.

Douglas: Great. I picked it up in `Steps to Christ' and a number of places. The same words?

Wieland: Well, its in `The Mount of Blessings' and it is a very clear statement because many people?? have the idea that Ellen White specializes in telling how hard it is to follow Jesus. They have that idea that she just makes it as boring and difficult as possible.

Douglas: They are not reading her writings.

Wieland: Well, not as much as they should. - But there on page 139 it says, "... do not therefore conclude that the upward path is the hard and the downward road the easy way. [250] All along the road that leads to death there are pains and penalties, there are sorrows and disappointments, there are warnings not to go on. God's love has made it hard for the heedless and headstrong to destroy themselves." {MB 139.1}

Douglas: I would tell you about some experience. Looking at it from year to year and 1888 too, and just watching myself learn more of the great controversy theme and what Ellen White expanded for me, it made me a very quiet, happy person. I couldn't be happier than I am today. Somehow the Lord has placed upon all of us who want to respond to His invitations to make that happen as ... happier to be following the truth wherever it leads.

Wieland: And I got this conviction, that, if only we would let our people know what is this most precious message, and they understood it. [Please check out each link.] They would produce the most efficient evangelism we have ever dreamed of, because every church member who accepts this most precious message will become an evangelist in spite of himself. -- The old lady is going to share the message across the fence with the neighbor.

Douglas: Because they both will be happy together for the first time.

Wieland: Yes. The one's who teach the boys and girls in the cradle role, the kindergarten and primary divisions, instead of preaching Old Covenant ideas are going to give this exhuberant, joyous message of the New Covenant. And ...

Douglas: Alright. We have come to the end of this session. Next time I want you to explain in more detail the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

[100] See here in contrast how another leader did not discern it when another book taught falsities.

[250] Which essentially means, It is easier to be saved than to be lost.